Intro & Outro: 0:00

Welcome to Tennessee on Supply Chain Management, where we unpack the drivers shaping today's global supply chains. From innovative ideas to real-world solutions, each episode brings you insights from the leaders charting the course for our discipline. Now here are your hosts.

Ted Stank: 0:18

Hello, everyone. This is Ted Stank, your co-host of Tennessee on Supply Chain Management. We're here with season four, episode three of our podcast in the brand new year of 2026. I'm here with my good friend Tom Goldsby. Tom, how are you doing?

Tom Goldsby: 0:34

Doing well, Ted. Great to be back together. It is our first recording of 2026.

Ted Stank: 0:40

Tom really brings me great pleasure to announce our guest for today, Stuart Sandlin, who's president of IPAC Bloid North America, who is not in New Jersey. He's in Atlanta, actually. And I accused him of being in New Jersey a little while ago. Stuart, great to have you with us.

Stuart Sandlin: 0:56

I'm really excited to be here. And you know, normally when you move your headquarters from New Jersey to Atlanta, you're very excited because you moved to a warmer climate. However, after this nice ice storm we had this weekend, it doesn't really feel like warmer weather. I don't have the hair to really protect me at 18 degrees. So this is not so good. But thanks a lot to have me on the show. I'm excited to be here.

Ted Stank: 1:15

And Stuart, that totally resonates with me for sure, for obvious reasons. By the way, I am in Nashville staying at my in-laws' house because we lost power with a bunch of trees falling down in this ice storm. So again, like your comments about the cold in Atlanta resonate with me as well.

Tom Goldsby: 1:32

Well, you both should be here on Rocky Top, Knoxville, Tennessee, where we got probably a foot of rain over the past 36 hours. A little bit of a freeze today. We did uh take our classes online for today. And I see that a notice has gone out for the same tomorrow, but we're weathering it pretty well here on Rocky Top.

Stuart Sandlin: 1:54

You know, it's amazing though, because if you think about it, six years ago, having classes just randomly online was not a thing.

Ted Stank: 2:00

Not a thing. I was thinking the same thing. And now it's like, okay. Yeah, we would have had to cancel classes and then figure out how to make up the content.

Tom Goldsby: 2:08

Very easy pivot today.

Ted Stank: 2:10

Yeah. All right, Tom, what kinds of things we got lined up for today?

Tom Goldsby: 2:14

Well, again, it's been several weeks, it feels like, since our last podcast, and a lot has happened. I mean, maybe uh one place to start would be talking about the holiday sales season, I think, proved to be pretty robust. Uh, by and large, supply chains must have held up pretty well because we didn't hear a lot of people complaining about empty store shelves and late deliveries and such. So, hey, I guess the supply chain earns pretty high marks based on the holiday season.

Ted Stank: 2:39

Yeah, holiday sales. I mean, right on from you know, from Black Friday on, we set marks for sales, and I didn't see a whole lot of service variability, elevated in some areas, of course, but I think across the board pretty well. In fact, Stuart, I'd love to get your take on this. Are we in a new world where we're not gonna see the huge holiday season bump because retailers in particular are more cognizant of supply chain challenges and are ordering earlier and having it smooth out?

Stuart Sandlin: 3:12

Or what a trick question, Ted. I should go ahead and crack that beer now. Um I would say that uh we have a little bit of a unique year. I don't think you can say 25 is the new baseline for anything. A lot happened in 25. And I do think the net impact of that is is you had diverging strategies across supply chain managers and how they actually managed and ordered inventory. So you had some people that brought inventory forward to make sure that whatever was happening in the tariff world or whatever was happening in terms of the supply chain, which the net effect of that was a smoothing that went across all the supply chains. So the traditional peak that you historically have as it relates to the supply chains and ocean shipping and inventory management for the holidays, I think it did get brought forward by some, which was definitely smoothing. And to your point, I didn't hear any real heavy pain points across our customer base anyway, or candidly my family complaining to me about not being on time or being here. So I think it worked out pretty well for me. I mean, I think what you see is also similar to what I saw.

Tom Goldsby: 4:11

You know, something that occurred to me with that shift of ordering sooner, as you point out, one aspect was getting ahead of tariffs. That was a major aspect. Usually what's a pretty low shipping season in summer was pretty busy. And then things got a little bit more muted later in the year. And it didn't result in something of a smoothing out. But it it made me wonder whether or not the forecast that procurement professionals were making here stateside were going to be that much further out and maybe that much more wrong. But I'm not really seeing any sort of fallout. Apparently, I'm not hearing like consumer outcry that, you know, the wrong merchandise was in stock when they went shopping over the holidays. Again, there were pretty full shelves and people seem to have variety to choose from.

Stuart Sandlin: 4:59

You know, when I was in grad school, unfortunately not at Rocky Top, it was kind of funny. We learned two things about forecasting, which is probably what you also teach. The first rule of forecasting, forecast is always wrong. Second is that the further out the forecast goes, the more wrong that forecast is. Exactly. And you know, I would say it's the same thing. I do think that there were diverging strategies when the tariffs came. And those diverging strategies made some people have higher costs of landed product, but actually have the product, and other large retailers chose to hold off for the tariffs and actually ended up with stock outs. And I think you actually see all that in the stock price. So you definitely saw more noise. COVID really seemed to make CFOs and chief supply chain officers within our customer base, they really are now acutely attuned into supply chain. Historically, the supply chain was never really in the boardroom because it was always just a cost center. Now it's really a value creator, and you see more people looking at it because of the impacts and ribble effects of not managing your supply chain well.

Ted Stank: 5:55

Well, Stuart's singing right from our hymnal, isn't he, Ted? He sure is. And certainly in the last, what, six years now, you know, we've been talking about COVID five years. It's been six years now since we hit COVID. And the lessons we learned in COVID about the importance of managing the supply chain. And of course, the last year, with all the uncertainty and volatility from tariffs, most supply chain managers are having their voices heard in the boardroom now, which has been something we've been calling for for a long time.

Stuart Sandlin: 6:21

If you don't manage the supply chain messaging up, that's when you actually see a change in supply chain managers. You can always see the ones who manage up well and the ones who actually communicate what's happening and give good transparency with data-backed analysis. You see those folks that actually are able to manage that and the extra cost aren't unknown. And this less armchair quarterback and from the C-suite.

Ted Stank: 6:43

I love that point, Stuart. Let's put that in the parking lot number one slot. Because as we move through today, I'd really like to get your take on leadership and how do you build leaders? That seems like a really interesting point to me that I had not heard other guests talk about before is that ability to manage up. Fascinating. Hey, a couple of things that are happening geopolitically. And Tom, I'd love to get your take on this. Uh, I know uh Mayersk had talked about starting to transit through the Red Sea again. A couple of other big shipping companies had mentioned it and then backed away from it. Um, so that's happening. You know, that if that happens and we start transiting the Red Sea, just today, Hamas released the remains of the last Israeli prisoner. It makes me wonder if that will have some impact on what's happening over there in the Middle East. And then, Tom, the other one I really want to get your take on is what's happening with the Panama Canal. The last two years, I think it's been two years, we've had restrictions on the Panama Canal because of lack of rainfall. And so, therefore, reduction in capacity of ships that are able to transit through. Love to see what you saw down there. And then again, Stuart, this is your business. So we'd love to have your take on both these issues.

Tom Goldsby: 7:55

Yeah, well, I'm pleased to provide a firsthand account of Panama Canal operations, having uh seen both uh Pacific entry-exit point near Panama City and also on the Atlantic side near Cologne. We got a chance to see both sets of uh major locks there, old and new. When uh I accompanied a group of our MS Global Supply Chain students, we just got back uh about 10 days ago after spending 10 days in Panama, just a tremendous trip. And oh, by the way, a pretty good place to be in early January, given the tropical climate. But things were running quite smoothly uh from what we could see. Yeah, you're referring to the kind of the drought issues that they were very forthcoming about and the reduced capacity. Uh, but what's really exciting is they're talking about another set of expanded locks. So they're they've got it cordoned off, and they're talking about maybe in the next few years uh so they can take on the larger Super Max vessels that are too large already for the existing Neo-Panamax canals that they have. And so it was great. We got to get up close and see the canals in operation and saw a car carrier coming through, the Miraflores locks over on the Pacific side. And then I think uh it wasn't one of yours, Stuart. It was an MSC ship coming through at the Aguas Claris uh locks. But it was really, really great for us to kind of bookend our trip with the visits to the canal. But you point out, hey, not just only that uh shortcut through the Americas, but also that the shortcut through the Suez and then Red Sea seems to be back up and running. We did visit Mayersk in Panama, and they were proud to say that they had very gingerly re-entered. And also I'm aware that uh Mayersk and HEPOG are in partnership with this Gemini arrangement. So maybe uh Stuart, you all are seeing some of that action too.

Ted Stank: 9:52

So, Tom, before Stuart goes, one day we need to make this an audio and video podcast because I think our listeners missed the facial expression Stuart made when you talked about the new locks that are going into the Panama Canal. Stuart, I'm gonna kick this to you for your commentary. I like it.

Stuart Sandlin: 10:12

You know, this is why you don't want to play poker with me. Uh actually, it's probably why you do want to play poker with me. So I would say, um, you know, first off, for anybody who's listening, if you really are an engineering person, just check the locks out. It's the most impressive engineering feat I've ever witnessed firsthand. It's unbelievable how close the ships come to the side of the locks. It's unbelievable how the locks literally lift and drop the ships. It's unbelievable to think that Coutun Lake, which is a nice, beautiful, beautiful rainforest, is just sitting here feeding all this water, which is then washing out into the ocean. And I have to say, it only takes once before, if you're not in love with shipping by then, you're gonna be in love with it after that.

Ted Stank: 10:57

Yeah, I felt like if we did a modern seven wonders of the world, the Panama Canal would definitely be in it. It has to be.

Stuart Sandlin: 11:03

And you know, I think that uh Oceanographic Institute has given them feedback on the rising sea levels and how that's gonna impact the locks, but I don't know how the rainforest is going to generate more rain to supply the water with another set of even larger locks. I mean, I believe that it's the two set of locks, which is really depleting Katin Lake, which is really resulting in the low water because we're letting too much water out at the same time. And so the hydraulics pumping the water back in are being offset. So I think it'll be very interesting to see if that actually works. I had not heard about that, but we know that'll be a long time in coming. So maybe by then we'll have more engineering and technology feats to make that work. But I think that it's funny because the Cape of Good Hope routing really adds a lot of extra transit time on as people try to avoid the Red Sea due to the Hooties and really the backwards funding from Iran to fund the Houthis and that terrorism that happens on the ship is a real thing. I'll never forget that I got the call at night telling me that one of our ships had been hit and it was a drone that hit the top and it was hit an empty container. But if it was a couple of containers away, there was a DG box. And that would have been really bad. Dangerous goods box. So I think that's a very compelling component. The Red Sea is still a little sketchy. If you look at what the insurance companies are doing today, the insurance costs for insuring our goods going through those markets are still incredibly high because I don't think the insurance companies are completely convinced it's very safe. And you just saw one of my competitors said they were going to go back through and then actually pivoted, and now we're going back around the Cape of Good Hope. So I think it's a very fluid situation. The good news, and where I'm really proud of our industry, is that we have prioritized the life of the sailors over seven days quicker transit time. And I really appreciate the fact that our competitive advantage or desire for competitive advantage in a very tight marketplace has not allowed us to forfeit the lives of our sailors or put those sailors' lives at deeper risk. So I really love that. And we'll see kind of where the future goes with that. If that does happen, I think that you're gonna have an immediate scenario where the supply is greater than demand for liner shipping. Going around Africa has definitely taken available container supply out. And so I think you will see some more capacity coming in. And I think that supply and demand will start to filter in. However, I would say you already see supply and demand factoring in today if you look at the prices. And I think that as such, you start to see capacity coming out in relation to the return we're getting on those assets. That sounded super technical. I should have just asked Chat GPT what to say.

Tom Goldsby: 13:43

It would have told me something better than that. Hey, our listeners are savvy. That's good. Hey, I'm curious, you mentioned the fluidity of your business, which I think was kind of fun, tongue-in-cheek, given the ocean liner business you all are in. But with regard to 2025, looking back, it was a very tumultuous business year. We talk about the Red Sea. We talk about, okay, so the Panama Canal became back online, fully operational. But I'm also thinking about different axes of trade that have developed thanks to trade wars. And I'm just curious, can you comment a little bit on how your routings and sailings have adapted to a changing business environment in the macro economy?

Stuart Sandlin: 14:23

So maybe I'll talk about the macro stuff first and I'll try to keep the Habak Lloyd view a little bit further removed from this because we changed our operating model. We went from the traditional big loops that our industry does and went into a hub and spoke concept, which is different in its own right. So for right now, I'll just park that onto the side. But generally speaking, you definitely saw and have seen for several years that the China Plus one strategy started a while back. And what you saw with the Chinese tariffs that accelerated the pace of movement into Southeast Asia. And you see that movement coming in. However, it's primarily being operated. I mean, a lot of those factories are Chinese factories just operating in Vietnam. It's not that it's not a Vietnamese factory operating in Vietnam. So it's just a migration, and the raw materials are coming in from China to then be made in and finished in Vietnam and then coming back out. But it's interesting, I think you see Indonesia coming up big. I think you see uh Vietnam coming. You see a little bit of the Philippines, but primarily I would say Indonesia and Vietnam were the primary recipients of that. India, you also saw a resurging emphasis on India. I still think India has the people that have been able to do it. They still have some infrastructure challenges, but they're the only ones with a population young enough to do it. And that's why all the technology centers are there. But they haven't really mastered the art of the manufacturing like the Chinese have. And you've definitely seen some upticks, but you haven't seen the hard push yet come for India. But you for sure see it and you see it in the demand cycle as well. Since COVID, the population centers in the US have moved and you start to see the Southeast and the Gulf, Texas in particular, really starting to thrive a little bit. So supply chains are stretching out just a little bit if they come from those different markets. And for sure, because of the Red Sea and the Hooties that I was mentioning just a minute ago, around the Cape of Good Hope in Africa, really added some extra supply chain time. Initially, that supply chain time was really a big concern for many, many people. But once you realize it's just an extra seven days and you have that extra seven days of buffer stock, it really was a non-event. I mean, nobody really complained about it. You just had higher costs because you had higher cost of goods in transit. So I suspect, while I'm not involved in it, I suspect people were looking at the terms of sale a little bit closer because normally, depending on where you take ownership, the terms really start then. So I suspect that people try to look at that from a cash flow basis. But it's been really interesting, Tom. And I think that most of the industries have adjusted. The other thing I think you begin to see is as you know, the liner shipping space and people that move containers, that industry has consolidated a lot over the last two decades. Whereas you used to have a lot of small fragmented players, that's really now a much more compressed market. And so you see better ability to have capacity control, which creates a different thing where supply can come closer to meeting demand and the ability to pull supply out is a much more unilateral decision or several partners as opposed to having eight people that have to make the choice. Because when you're in an alliance, you have to have a lot of your partners that agree to pull it out. So it's changed a lot, I would say. And I think the industry overall is changing.

Tom Goldsby: 17:25

Well, I'll tell you what, if you want to understand the impacts of geopolitical overtures, talk to someone like Stuart who's actually moving those boxes around the world, and you'll get a sense of how it's all shaken out. So I really appreciate that summation, Stuart. That was great.

Stuart Sandlin: 17:41

I I was just gonna say, and you might want to listen to all the other podcasts, not when you're in the bed. This might be a good one when Stewart puts you to sleep with all my facts and all my geopolitical movement. Maybe that's not the one you want to listen to in the car. You want to listen to people that are actually slightly more energetic than me.

Tom Goldsby: 17:57

Not our listeners. They're geeking out on this. This is fantastic.

Ted Stank: 18:01

I think we have more fun than other podcasts do.

Stuart Sandlin: 18:04

That's what people want to listen to, right? They want to listen to people that are having fun. And the good news is somebody asked me when I'm gonna retire, and I said, Why would I retire? What am I gonna do that's more fun than what I'm doing right now?

Ted Stank: 18:14

Exactly.

Tom Goldsby: 18:15

Exactly.

Ted Stank: 18:15

Hey, I'm gonna ask you guys permission for something, okay? What we've talked about a lot so far is change, volatility, new themes, new trade routes. I'm gonna throw in, instead of driving deeply into them because I think we're all tired of hearing about it, I'm just gonna name them off on my fingers here and without getting into it. But we also are in a world now with increasing both domestic and international geopolitical volatility, labor volatility, economic volatility, demographic. You mentioned demographic, Stuart, demographic volatility. I've been looking at some statistics about birth rates, and they are plummeting. People thought they might come back post-COVID. They're plummeting around the industrialized world. I'd like to roll all that into the theme that I said we were gonna park in parking place number one. You are responsible for a huge operation that has global reach, thousands and thousands of people that work for you. I'd love to get your take on how do you prepare leaders to succeed in this world. And I don't think any of us here think that this volatility is gonna decrease in in the near future in our lifetimes, maybe in our grandkids' lifetimes. Love to get your take on that. Okay.

Stuart Sandlin: 19:34

First thing I have to say is you got to ditch your expectations. The reason people get disappointed with where they're at or what they want to do is because they have expectations of where they should be. They look at their friend and their fake post on social media saying that they're making $2 million a year as a side hustle, and it's just not true. Or they're one in the gazillion. I would say though, people having expectations about where they should be. I think it was one of our presidents that said that comparison is the thief of joy, and for sure this is correct. If you just sit there and compare yourself with somebody else, there's always somebody who's gonna have a bigger car, a bigger house, better salary, better job, smarter, better hair, or any of these other things. But in my opinion, I would say that's the first thing that we all have to continue to tell folks that that's it. Number two, I would say that networking really is key. I've heard it all my life that it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I would say that this is key. And the way that you network is you call someone and you ask them uh how question. How is this impacting you? How are how are you doing? How are we communicating? How would you oversee this? I think those things are really good because you have to understand that by networking, you get people that are looking to make an investment in you, and this is what helps you be stable for the future. I would like to say, in my opinion, that the leaders of tomorrow are being invested in today. It is up to all of us that are leading folks that we continue to try to think about how do we actually cultivate that into learnable skills and leadership skills tomorrow. I ask everybody all the time, how much time do you spend in management versus leadership? And the key is that as you progress throughout your career, it should become more on leadership and a little bit less on management. But if you don't think about that, it's really difficult. And we as leaders have the obligation to lead because as a manager, you can't develop a leader. You have to be a leader to develop a leader. If you're a manager, you're only developing another manager. And I think that this is a really important component. So, you know, Ted, I think it's a multifaceted challenge of about what we face. I think you also have to recognize that sometimes when people make comments, it's not about you personally, it's about ways to make you better.

Ted Stank: 21:43

Love that. Hey, could you comment on your earlier comment about a leader that's successful today needs to know how to manage up and your take on that and what those skills involve?

Stuart Sandlin: 21:55

You know, first off, I think you've got to be true to you. If one of my team members acted Like me, somebody would think he's on drugs because that's just not his personality. And I think we just have to recognize that you've got to be true to you because otherwise it comes across as disingenuous and it doesn't work. I think for me, the key is you always have to manage the expectations. I put the word and I started doing it a long time ago, and I said this to a couple other people. If you put the word and at the end of your sentence, it always changes you from a backwards-looking statement to a forward-looking statement. My numbers are great, and this is what I'm going to do to continue. My numbers are terrible, and this is how I'm going to fix it. It changes because what's the next question? If I say my numbers are terrible, what do you think that person's going to say to me? What are you going to do about it? So if you go ahead and pivot and it gives the confidence that you have a plan. The other thing that I think about managing up is is manage the expectation about when you're going to do what next. And I'm going to do this. I'm going to call the top 20 customers by Friday, and I will give you feedback by Friday at 6 p.m. Because then he's not going to send you a message on Friday morning and say, or she is not going to send you a message by Friday morning and say, where are you at? Because you already told them when you're going to respond. I think this is the same with internal and external. I think we try to do it with our customers today, and you should try to do it with your professors today if you don't already. We try to do it with our team members today because I think managing that expectation about what's to come next is a real difference maker. So I really say and is a key component of managing that.

Ted Stank: 23:24

I love that. That's a great takeaway from today.

Tom Goldsby: 23:29

I love that. And Stuart, I took a look at your LinkedIn uh before the podcast today. And something that I loved is how invested as president and CEO of HayPag Lloyd North America, you were talking about the internship program and how proud you were about that. And you were very engaged with that. And you know, a lot of you know CEOs wouldn't touch the internship program. You know, they'd expect that to be maybe several layers down in the organization, trust that maybe there is one in place. But clearly you care deeply about those individuals that are coming into your organization at every level. Can you talk a little bit about? I think some of those things you offered were very key for our students to enter the likes of a haypag Lloyd. But I mean, can you talk about how you view that as a critical investment in that future?

Stuart Sandlin: 24:20

I don't think there's anything better than that to help cultivate what my organization will do after I am gone. And the reason I say this, Tom, is because I think if you can create an engaged and empowered and entrepreneurial environment, that really is how you actually create the company of tomorrow. When I first got into this role three years ago, our internship program was spotty at best. The experience varied based on who was leading that group and how invested they were and how important they thought it was. And you know, it's really funny because a lot of different internship programs put people doing things that are not relevant. They go and they put things that I'm making copies or I'm filing away stuff. In our world, I want you to see what it's like because then we as a company benefit from new views of energetic questioning. The students going, why do we do this? Why do we do that? I mean, what a great way to challenge the status quo. Otherwise, you just sit back and you fall into your laurels. I think we let those folks be a part of the team. I'm super excited about how we have now a cohort that actually creates a sense of camaraderie across numerous academic organizations and numerous experiences. And we really work hard to make that happen. The other thing we change, Tom, is that now if it's a high performing team member in the internship, we try to give them a job offer before they go back to school. Um, because if they're going to perform well during this period of time, we already know if they like us and we like them, we should get that fish from the boat.

Tom Goldsby: 25:50

No, that's fantastic. And I know that there's a lot of talk out there, certainly on our campus and campuses nationwide, about a so-called no-fire, low hire environment. And even some talk about a lot of these entry-level positions maybe being AI'd away. And there's a lot of concern about the opportunities for graduates from fine programs like ours, finding those opportunities. What advice can you offer to students, whether they're undergrads, master's students, MBAs, in terms of how to make an in-roads and uh and find an opportunity with the likes of a haypeck Lloyd?

Stuart Sandlin: 26:26

What a great question, Tom. You know, I have one daughter who graduated last May, so it's almost been a year now. Well, getting close. And one daughter who is a rising senior. Wow, that went quick. Um but I would say, you know, a couple things. Number one, I think if you can get an internship, get an internship somewhere in the field you want. I would also say that it's going to take a lot, but if you don't ever swing the bat, you don't ever get a hit. You got to swing the bat a lot. And just continue to remember that the coach that puts the best team on the field wins the game. So let's just make sure that as we sit here and think about kind of what does your future look like, just find something that you really love to do and let your passion shine. I would also say there's some pretty basic communication skills that are very important. Number one, if you're walking through a job fair and you see somebody that makes eye contact with you, whether you're interested in that job or not, you walk up and you say hello. You introduce yourself first, stick your hand out, make good firm handshake and make eye contact and say, Hi, my name is. Can you tell me a little bit more about your program? That's all you have to do. And I think just by doing that, you're already in the top 10% of all students in the country. I've been to enough job fairs, I've done that, I've seen how people it is, and it's kind of like you're trying to snag people that are walking by because nobody knew who Habak Lloyd was. But the people that make eye contact with me, that already tells me who their personality is, and that's who I want to talk to. So for me, don't be looking at your phone, put your phone away, just start walking. If you need to look at your phone, pull yourself off to the side, out of the mainstream of traffic, look at your phone, put your phone back away, and keep walking. That's what I would say. Nobody told me that in college. I wish they would have.

Tom Goldsby: 28:03

That's golden. Hey, and we've got a career fair coming up on campus soon. And hey, Peg Lloyd, I hope you're all going to be there and snag some of our talent. But that's great advice for our students uh in those engagements. And, you know, as I tell students, I mean, it kind of comes from the lottery that you got to play to win, I guess, right? But you got to show up. And that uh really continues to be what separates, I think, the top performers from everyone else is showing up and bringing your passion, right?

Stuart Sandlin: 28:33

Absolutely. Passion does great things. I would also say just make sure that they smile because smiling is so important. It's psychologically so easy to like someone that smiles. And if they like you, then the chance that you're getting hired is much better.

Ted Stank: 28:47

Wasn't it Woody Allen that said 99% of success is showing up? Absolutely.

Tom Goldsby: 28:52

Absolutely. I love that we're getting this advice from a CEO, right? I mean, we're not talking to an HR leader. It's it's someone who's at the head of the organization offering this advice for students. This is great.

Ted Stank: 29:03

Well, and that's going to key to what I was gonna ask Stuart next is as a CEO who is also engaged at hiring at the lower level, what is your take on generational change? You hear so much about oh, Gen Z is this and Gen Z is that. I mean, I think Tom and I have comments that we can make about it because we deal with them daily. What's your take on it?

Stuart Sandlin: 29:23

I would say that labels are bad for everybody. I would say Gen Z millennial, not everybody, I don't care when you're born, just because you're a millennial doesn't mean you think the same way as everybody else that was born in that same time period. So I try not to think in terms of those things. I think it comes back to again managing expectations. Super candidly, everybody's grown up now with social media, and so everybody's watching everybody's best picture of their best point in life, oftentimes with a filter, and they think that's what their life should be. So this high drama aspiration that comes from I'm in the organization and three years later I'm gonna be the CEO. I just don't think it works like that for everybody. It's just a more mature version of when you're eight years old and you say you want to play professional sports. Well, simply by the numbers, not everybody's playing professional sports. And it's the same thing in terms of people coming out of school and thinking about, I want to be here and I want to be here and I want to be here. What I really love though is the inquisitive aspect of all people that want to learn. And if you're calling it Gen Z and that's where they want to learn, or millennials and that's where they want to learn, if they come in with an inquisitive brain saying, how can I be better? How can I make myself the most qualified applicant for the next level of promotion? How can I continue to rise through the ranks? Those great questions really kind of thrive and fuel me to make an investment back in that. For me, my leadership style is fairly simple. I don't see things in hierarchy. I think we all have the job and it's just a different job. It doesn't really matter what job you do. There are people in my company that do this job and I do this job. It's just a different job, but we all work for the same company. I really believe it's one team, one goal. We win together as a team or we lose together as a team. And I really believe that. I think that the base interaction, social skills of empathy, demonstrating empathy and understanding and wanting to get to know the people is very important. I work super hard to try to know everybody's name. I mean, I work very, very hard because I think if I know your name, I can advocate for you. If I don't know your name, how do I really say it's a career, not a job, if I don't even know who you are? I think it's really difficult. So for me, I think if you demonstrate empathy, if I ask questions about people, if I really want to know, I think that's good. I also, this is gonna sound really silly. I use self-deprecation a lot because that really takes the stigma of title out of the position. If I'm sitting here making fun of myself, then you can't be that kind of guy. I and I use it a lot.

Tom Goldsby: 31:53

That's all.

Ted Stank: 32:18

I would have loved to have come to work for you guys. Ocean shipping is in my blood from my time in the Navy. And uh, I think I missed a chance. I hope you guys are recruiting junior naval officers.

Stuart Sandlin: 32:29

You know, Ted, if you're interested, if if Rocky Top's getting too uh dry for you, you can come to our orange. It's not quite the exact same orange, but it's not far off. Let's take this conversation offline.

Tom Goldsby: 32:39

I'm I'm getting really uncomfortable with where this conversation's going. But uh Ted, I this kind of burst in the bubble. I thought you had four years of eligibility. You're gonna enter the portal and you were gonna lace up for the vols or something, right?

Ted Stank: 32:53

I mean, uh I'm gonna be on the forecastle of one of his ships pulling bow lines.

Tom Goldsby: 32:57

I'll tell you what, you belong on the volunteer navy. That's that's about the extent of it. And let's kind of keep it there.

Stuart Sandlin: 33:02

I mean, that's fantastic. That's just fantastic. So, but you know, I would say I really appreciate the fact that you all asked the questions because I think it's very important for people in today's world to understand what are the expectations and what can you do? And how do you find a meritocracy and how do you find the wrong culture for them? And I think it's it's a great question. And I would say an interview is not only a time for the company to interview you, you were also interviewing the company.

Ted Stank: 33:28

Absolutely.

Stuart Sandlin: 33:29

I think it's very, very important. Don't take the first job, take the job.

Ted Stank: 33:32

And I, you know, I've said this on this podcast before. I was an operations guy, didn't think a lot about culture. I had a doctoral student when I first came to Tennessee, a guy by the name of John Mello. John, if you're listening, he was all into culture. More senior guy worked in manufacturing, was all into culture. And I was like, you know, it's about operations and executing. And at this point in my life now, that was 20, almost 25 years ago. Culture is everything. And again, the reason why I have fun with guests like you, Stuart, is because we have kind of a cultural identity, and I would love to go work for your company because of that. I just think that your comment about your interviewing a company, you have to find that cultural fit as well.

Stuart Sandlin: 34:12

Yep, absolutely. Well, maybe I can give one more piece of uh interview advice, then just for the anybody that's listening, because no matter what level you are, it's always important. I think of interviewing is like tennis, not baseball. Um, you want to hit the ball back and forth. You want them to ask a question and you want to ask a question back. And then they want to ask a question, you ask a question back. And then different than baseball. If they're asking you a question and you're swinging, and either you hit or you miss, and then you wait on the next question, you've already lost this game. You want to hit the ball back and forth. Don't let them throw it to you, and then and then you just either swing or hit. Kick it back to them. Learn something.

Tom Goldsby: 34:51

Well, that means that you have to do your homework in order to have that back and forth, right? You can't walk into an interview cold and just be ready to present yourself. You got to know something about who you're you're interacting with.

Ted Stank: 35:01

And I love your point about letting your personality come through too. Can I tell you guys a quick anecdote before we start wrapping up here?

Tom Goldsby: 35:07

Let's hear it, Ted.

Ted Stank: 35:08

Junior naval officer was getting out of the Navy, and so started going to career fairs and everything. And you know, after you do that for a while, you it just, you know, you've been through it, and I had a couple of opportunities. The search firm that I was working with said, Hey, I want you to come to one more of these in Atlanta. And I was considering a couple other offers. Abbott Labs is the company I ended up going to work for. They flew me to Atlanta. I had a bunch of interviews and had an interview with the regional manager, guy by the name of Rick Gonzalez, who ended up becoming CEO of Abbott Labs, uh, at least the diagnostic division. Big guy, right? I don't mean physically, but big job in the company. And, you know, I'm a naval guy and didn't know a whole ton about business. And we're in his office and we're talking and we're having this repartee back and forth. And he says, Well, you know, it's time for us to wrap it up. Tell me one last thing. Why Abbott Labs? And I had just been, it was the end of the day. I've been interviewing all day, I'd been doing interviews for a couple of weeks. I don't know why I did it, but I said, I was born with the role of having to go to work for Abbott Labs. And Rick had like a notebook on his desk. And he's sitting there at his desk and he raises his head slowly and goes, You effing liar. And we both just started laughing our butts off. I took a limo to Atlanta Airport, flew back to Charleston. By the time I got home, there was an offer from Abbott Labs on my answering machine. Wow, I've never heard that story. That's and I went to work for them because Rick could Rick laughed about that, you know. I love it. What a great story.

Tom Goldsby: 36:47

That's awesome. Hey, I think we have learned, we have laughed. That's been a great session. And Stuart, thank you very much for kicking off the 2026 campaign of Tennessee on supply chain management. I can't think of a better guess we could have had here to not only kind of sort out the tumult uh out there on the high seas and and and global trade, but but also just to provide some really great advice. I can't wait to tell my students to plug in and hear this episode. But as we're wrapping up, uh perhaps we will be seeing you here on Rocky Top soon. I did see that our producer Josh point out Hay Pack Lloyd is signed up for the recruiting expo. So we look forward to your big orange coming to campus. And also we're going to be having our advisory board meeting next month. Hopefully, you can make it to that. And also, we want to remind folks listening out there, the supply chain form. Registration is now open for the spring form, April 21 to 23, right here in Knoxville. So we hope our listeners can make uh plans to be here. Ted, anything else I'm missing as we wrap things up?

Ted Stank: 37:50

No, another great episode. These are always a highlight of every month to have guests like you with us, Stuart. Really looking forward to seeing you in February and spending some face-to-face time together. Thank you so much for your time and insights. It's been great.

Intro & Outro: 38:06

Thanks for listening to Tennessee on Supply Chain Management. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform for more conversations with the leaders framing the path for practitioners, scholars, and students. Have a question or idea? We'd love to hear from you at gscii at utk.edu. Until next time, listeners.